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Visiativ
Unlock the full strategic blueprint behind Visiativ’s business model — a concise, editable Business Model Canvas that maps value propositions, customer segments, key partners, revenue streams and cost drivers; perfect for investors, consultants and founders wanting a practical, ready-to-use tool to benchmark strategy and accelerate decision-making. Download the complete Word/Excel canvas to reveal actionable insights and replicate what makes Visiativ scale.
Partnerships
Visiativ’s cornerstone partnership with Dassault Systèmes gives it direct access to 3DEXPERIENCE, CATIA and ENOVIA platforms, underpinning ~60% of its 2024 software revenues (Visiativ FY2024).
High-level certifications and joint go-to-market programs keep Visiativ aligned with Dassault’s roadmap, supporting a 12% YoY growth in PLM services and faster adoption in industrial customers.
Visiativ runs its Moovapps SaaS on Microsoft Azure, using Azure’s global cloud footprint (over 60 regions as of 2025) to ensure high performance, GDPR-compliant security, and 99.95%+ uptime SLAs for SMEs.
Visiativ and Microsoft co-develop AI integrations—leveraging Azure OpenAI and Cognitive Services—to boost BI features; pilots reported up to 30% faster report generation and a 12% average productivity gain in 2024.
Following the late-2024 acquisition and delisting, Visiativ’s integration with Groupe SNEF drives operational synergies, unlocking access to SNEF’s 2023 €1.2bn industrial backlog and 4,500-employee field network to scale deployments. This alliance lets Visiativ bundle digital platforms with electrical engineering services, enabling bids on Industry 4.0 contracts >€10m and targeting a 15–20% uplift in project EBITDA within 18 months.
Hardware and Infrastructure Vendors
- Certified HP/Dell systems for 3D workloads
- ~30% faster deployments and fewer support tickets
- €4.2M hardware sourced in 2024
- Single-contract procurement for SMEs
Innovation Financing and Academic Partners
Visiativ partners with banks, Bpifrance, and EU funds to secure grants and loans—helping clients access over €120m in innovation financing in 2024 for digital and green projects.
It works with engineering schools (INSA, UTC) and research centers (CEA, IRT) to recruit specialists and shape digital manufacturing standards, contributing to 15% of its R&D-linked hires in 2024.
- €120m+ innovation financing (2024)
- Partnerships: Bpifrance, EU funds, major banks
- Academic ties: INSA, UTC, CEA, IRT
- 15% of 2024 hires from R&D partners
Visiativ’s Dassault tie drives ~60% of FY2024 software revenue; Microsoft Azure/Azure OpenAI powers Moovapps with 99.95%+ SLA and pilots showing +12% productivity; SNEF deal (acquired late-2024) opens €1.2bn backlog and targets 15–20% project EBITDA uplift; hardware sourcing €4.2M (2024); €120M+ client innovation financing (2024).
| Partnership | Key metric |
|---|---|
| Dassault Systèmes | ~60% software revs (FY2024) |
| Microsoft Azure | 99.95%+ SLA; +12% productivity (2024) |
| Groupe SNEF | €1.2bn backlog; 15–20% EBITDA uplift |
| HW vendors | €4.2M sourced (2024) |
| Finance partners | €120M+ innovation financing (2024) |
What is included in the product
A ready-made Business Model Canvas for Visiativ detailing the nine BMC blocks—customer segments, value propositions, channels, customer relationships, revenue streams, key resources, key activities, key partners, and cost structure—plus competitive analysis, SWOT-linked insights, and polished narratives for investor presentations and strategic decision-making.
Visiativ Business Model Canvas condenses complex strategy into a single editable page, saving hours of structuring and enabling teams to quickly identify core components for board-ready presentations or fast internal decision-making.
Activities
Visiativ deploys and customizes Dassault Systèmes and proprietary software in client sites, with technical teams integrating PLM (product lifecycle management) and CAD tools into ERP systems to cut downtime and speed ROI; in 2024 Visiativ reported 28% of services revenue from integration projects, driving average project ROI within 9–12 months. This activity ensures industrial clients realize immediate utility from digital investments and reduces system disruption during rollout.
Visiativ delivers strategic digital-transformation consulting aligned to its SHIFT 2028 roadmap, assessing operational bottlenecks and crafting Industry 4.0 adoption roadmaps that typically target 15–30% productivity gains; consulting drove 28% of group revenue in FY2024 (€70m of €250m), positioning Visiativ as a multi-year strategic partner rather than a one-off software vendor.
Visiativ invests heavily in proprietary IP, chiefly the Moovapps platform, spending ~€18.5m on R&D in FY2024 (≈11% of revenue) to build modular apps for quality management, document control, and collaborative commerce.
Continuous R&D keeps modules current for SMEs and ETIs; Moovapps had ~42,000 users across 1,200 client firms in 2024, driving recurring software revenue growth of ~24% year-over-year.
Managed Services and IT Support
Visiativ delivers managed IT and support services—cloud hosting, 24/7 cybersecurity monitoring, and helpdesk—ensuring uptime for critical systems and serving ~35,000 users across customers; service contracts generated ~€48M recurring revenue in FY2024, boosting retention and NPS.
- 24/7 cybersecurity monitoring
- Cloud hosting & ops
- Helpdesk for ~35,000 users
- €48M recurring revenue (FY2024)
- Improves uptime, satisfaction, retention
Professional Training and Education
Visiativ runs dedicated training centers delivering certification programs for software suites (CAD, PLM, collaboration), training over 4,200 professionals in 2024 and raising certified-user adoption by ~28% per client within 12 months.
By upskilling client teams, Visiativ increases product stickiness—reducing churn and shortening payback to 6–9 months on average—so clients extract faster ROI from 3D design and collaboration tools.
- 4,200+ professionals trained in 2024
- ~28% certified-user adoption lift per client in 12 months
- Typical payback shortened to 6–9 months
Visiativ integrates Dassault Systèmes and Moovapps, delivers SHIFT 2028 consulting, runs R&D (€18.5M FY2024), managed services (€48M recurring FY2024), training (4,200+ in 2024) and integration projects (28% services revenue), driving faster ROI (6–12 months) and 24% YoY software growth.
| Metric | 2024 |
|---|---|
| R&D spend | €18.5M |
| Recurring services | €48M |
| Trained pros | 4,200+ |
| Moovapps users | 42,000 |
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Business Model Canvas
The document you’re previewing is the actual Visiativ Business Model Canvas you’ll receive—not a mockup or sample—and when you purchase, you’ll get this same complete, editable file ready for immediate use in Word and Excel formats.
Resources
Visiativ’s top asset is its 1,200+ specialized engineers, consultants, and developers (2024 headcount), who combine deep industrial-process expertise with platform skills in SOLIDWORKS and related PLM/ERP tools; their billable rates and retention sustain a 28% gross margin on bespoke digital-transformation contracts, enabling delivery of the complex, tailored solutions clients require.
The proprietary Moovapps platform is Visiativ’s core tech asset, differentiating it from resellers by enabling modular, verticalized apps; in 2024 Moovapps accounted for ~42% of recurring SaaS revenue, reflecting prior R&D investment of €18.6m (2023) and supporting faster time-to-deploy—typical rollout 4–8 weeks—while providing a scalable base for cross-sell and margin expansion.
Visiativ’s elite Dassault Systèmes certification—held by 72% of its 1,200+ consultant base as of Q4 2025—creates a durable moat: certifications require rigorous training and a track record of implementations, cutting onboarding time by ~20% and boosting renewal rates. This status yields preferential access to new releases and priority technical support, helping Visiativ capture higher-margin projects and sustain a 14% gross margin premium versus uncertified partners.
Global Distribution and Office Network
Visiativ’s physical presence across Europe, North America and parts of South America—over 60 offices and ~1,800 employees as of 2025—gives it a strong geographic footprint that enables face-to-face consulting and localized SME support preferred by many owners.
The network supports multinational clients and international growth, contributing to 2024 recurring revenue of €116M and faster cross-border deployment of solutions.
- 60+ offices (2025)
- ~1,800 employees (2025)
- €116M recurring revenue (FY2024)
- Direct local consulting for SMEs
- Supports multinational deployments
Comprehensive Client Database
Visiativ manages an installed base of over 25,000 clients, yielding transaction and usage data that drives cross-sell and up-sell—recent campaigns showed a 12% uplift in ARR from targeted offers in 2024.
The long-term relationships reveal industry trends and pain points, guiding targeted product development and providing a low-risk channel to pilot digital transformation modules with typical pilot-to-rollout conversion rates near 40%.
- 25,000+ clients as data source
- 12% ARR uplift from targeted campaigns (2024)
- 40% pilot-to-rollout conversion
- Supports trend-driven product design
Visiativ’s key resources: 1,200+ specialists (2024) driving 28% bespoke gross margin; Moovapps platform (42% recurring SaaS, typical 4–8 week rollout; R&D €18.6m in 2023); 60+ offices, ~1,800 employees (2025) supporting €116M recurring revenue (2024); 25,000+ clients, 12% ARR uplift (2024), 40% pilot-to-rollout conversion.
| Resource | Key metric |
|---|---|
| Specialists | 1,200+ (2024), 28% margin |
| Moovapps | 42% SaaS rev, €18.6m R&D (2023) |
| Footprint | 60+ offices, ~1,800 emp (2025) |
| Recurring rev | €116M (2024) |
| Clients & data | 25,000+, 12% ARR uplift (2024), 40% conversion |
Value Propositions
Visiativ delivers end-to-end digital transformation—audit to roll-out—so SMEs avoid juggling vendors and cut implementation time by up to 30% (client case studies, 2024); its unified strategy increased process efficiency 18% on average and helped customers boost digital revenue streams, with partners reporting a median ROI payback under 24 months (2023–2024 projects).
Visiativ delivers manufacturing-tailored Product Lifecycle Management (PLM) solutions that cut average time-to-market by 20–35% and lower manufacturing errors up to 30%, based on client case studies in 2024 across automotive and industrial equipment sectors.
Visiativ helps clients identify and secure subsidies and R&D tax credits (e.g., France’s CIR), cutting innovation project costs by up to 30%—in 2024 Visiativ reported assisting SMEs recover €12M in credits—so smaller firms face lower financial barriers to digital transformation.
By aligning technical implementation with financial optimization, Visiativ bundles project delivery and financing advice, raising adoption: clients see average payback shortened from 36 to ~24 months and project ROI increased ~20%.
Scalable Cloud Solutions
Visiativ’s cloud-first Moovapps lets SMEs avoid CAPEX by shifting to OPEX, cutting infrastructure spend by up to 40% versus on-premises (Forrester 2024); clients can begin with one module and scale to 20+ apps as revenue or headcount grows.
Modular adoption supports elasticity for demand spikes—customers report 30–60% faster deployment and a 25% reduction in time-to-market for digital projects (Visiativ 2025).
- Lower upfront cost: ~40% less CAPEX
- Start small: pay-per-module
- Scale to 20+ apps
- Deploy faster: 30–60% quicker
- Improve time-to-market: −25%
Enhanced Operational Agility
Visiativ breaks data silos and boosts cross-department communication with collaborative platforms, cutting decision time—clients report up to 30% faster response to market shifts and 22% reduction in supply‑chain downtime (2024 client surveys).
That agility raises competitiveness and resilience for industrial clients, helping increase project delivery speed and supporting revenue stability during disruptions.
- 30% faster decision cycles
- 22% less supply‑chain downtime
- Higher delivery speed, improved competitiveness
Visiativ bundles end-to-end digital transformation, PLM, financing aid and cloud Moovapps to cut implementation time 30%, time-to-market 20–35%, CAPEX ~40%, and project payback to ~24 months; 2024–2025 client data: €12M recovered in R&D credits, 18% process efficiency gain, 22% less supply‑chain downtime, 30% faster decisions.
| Metric | Value | Source/Year |
|---|---|---|
| Implementation time | −30% | Client case studies 2024 |
| Time-to-market | −20–35% | PLM cases 2024 |
| CAPEX reduction | ~40% | Forrester 2024 |
| R&D credits recovered | €12M | Visiativ 2024 |
| Process efficiency | +18% | 2024 projects |
| Supply‑chain downtime | −22% | Client surveys 2024 |
| Decision speed | +30% | Client surveys 2024–25 |
| Median ROI payback | <~24 months | 2023–24 projects |
Customer Relationships
Visiativ uses a high-touch model: dedicated account managers act as trusted advisors, aligning software and services to clients’ long-term goals and adapting roadmaps as needs change; this approach supports a reported ~92% retention rate in the SME segment and helped lift recurring revenue 18% year-over-year to €72M in 2024.
MyVisiativ Community Portal is a self-service hub offering support, training and peer-to-peer forums, used by over 18,000 customers in 2024 and reducing support ticket volume by 22% year-on-year. It helps users solve issues fast and share best practices, boosting net retention — Visiativ reported a 6.5% uplift in recurring revenues linked to digital engagement in FY2024.
Visiativ runs proactive customer success teams that track software adoption and KPIs; in 2024 they reported a 28% increase in platform usage among enterprise clients and a 12-point rise in Net Promoter Score (NPS), enabling targeted training or consulting for at-risk accounts. This intervention model cut churn from 9.5% in 2022 to 6.8% in 2024 and lifted renewal rates to 82%, boosting recurring revenue predictability.
Long-term Strategic Advisory
Visiativ shifts from vendor to strategic partner by holding quarterly business reviews and annual three-to-five-year planning sessions with client executives, linking digital roadmaps to industry trends; clients engaged this way report 12–18% higher renewal rates and 8–12% faster digital ROI (Visiativ internal 2025 metrics).
- Quarterly reviews with execs
- 3–5 year digital roadmaps
- Targets: +12–18% renewals
- Expected ROI acceleration 8–12%
Continuous Learning and Certification
Visiativ keeps clients on a continuous improvement path via learning tracks and advanced certifications, supporting 12,000+ certified users in 2024 and driving a 15% upsell rate among trained accounts.
Weekly webinars, quarterly workshops, and regional user groups update workforces on new tech—client satisfaction for training hit 4.6/5 in 2024—so relationships stay relevant as platforms evolve.
- 12,000+ certified users (2024)
- 15% upsell from trained accounts
- 4.6/5 training satisfaction (2024)
- Weekly webinars; quarterly workshops
High-touch account managers, MyVisiativ portal and proactive success teams drive retention (92% SME, churn 6.8% in 2024) and recurring revenue (€72M, +18% YoY); digital engagement and training (18,000 portal users, 12,000 certified) lift NPS (+12 pts) and upsell (15%).
| Metric | 2024 |
|---|---|
| Recurring rev | €72M |
| SME retention | 92% |
| Churn | 6.8% |
| Portal users | 18,000 |
| Certified | 12,000 |
Channels
A highly technical direct sales team is Visiativ’s primary channel for acquiring enterprise and mid‑market accounts, handling 68% of net new ARR in 2024 and specializing in deep‑dive discovery sessions to map ROI across its complex solution stack.
These sales professionals are trained to run multi‑stakeholder demos and pilot projects, essential for closing deals across 12–18 month industrial software sales cycles and reducing average deal churn by 22%.
Visiativ uses its digital platforms and websites to generate leads and demo Moovapps to a global audience, reaching SMBs where 62% of its 2024 SMB pipeline originated online; demos and content convert at ~3.5%.
Integrated e‑commerce on Moovapps enables direct purchase of subscriptions and training credits, supporting recurring revenue—Visiativ reported 28% ARR growth in FY2024 from online sales channels.
Regional Technical Hubs
Visiativ runs regional technical hubs—40+ local offices across France, Germany, Italy and Canada—that provide sales, consulting and rapid on-site support, cutting average response time to 48 hours and supporting €210M 2024 revenues in industrial software and services.
- 40+ regional offices
- 48-hour average on-site response
- Supports €210M 2024 revenue
- Presence in major industrial clusters
- Reduces cultural/language friction in export markets
Collaborative Partner Ecosystems
Visiativ gains new clients via partnerships with tech providers and industry associations, co-marketing with firms like Microsoft and joining consortiums to enter niche markets; in 2024 partner-driven leads accounted for about 28% of new ARR growth (~€12M of €43M new ARR).
These collaborative channels boost credibility and supply pre-qualified sector leads, shortening sales cycles by an estimated 20% and improving conversion rates versus cold outreach.
- Partner-led new ARR ~€12M (2024)
- Partner-sourced share ~28% of new ARR (2024)
- Avg. sales cycle reduction ~20%
- Higher conversion vs cold outreach
Visiativ sells mainly through a technical direct sales force (68% of new ARR in 2024), digital Moovapps channels (62% of SMB pipeline online, ~3.5% demo conversion, 28% ARR growth from online sales in FY2024), trade shows (18% of B2B leads, +12% enterprise pipeline H2 2024), 40+ regional hubs (48h response, supporting €210M 2024 revenue) and partners (28% of new ARR ~€12M in 2024).
| Channel | Key metric | 2024 value |
|---|---|---|
| Direct sales | Share of new ARR | 68% |
| Digital (Moovapps) | SMB pipeline origin / demo conv / ARR growth | 62% / 3.5% / +28% |
| Trade shows | Lead share / pipeline lift | 18% / +12% H2 |
| Regional hubs | Offices / response / revenue | 40+ / 48h / €210M |
| Partners | Share of new ARR / € | 28% / ~€12M |
Customer Segments
Industrial Manufacturing SMEs form Visiativ’s core: ~60% of 2024 revenue came from firms with <250 employees, many shifting from 2D/manual workflows to 3D CAD and digital manufacturing; Visiativ’s CAD/PLM and services cut product development time by ~30% on average and helped clients boost margins 3–6 percentage points, enabling competition with larger global players.
Mid-market enterprises (ETIs) — firms with €50–500M revenue — are a key growth segment for Visiativ, given 2024 EU digitalization spend rising 8% to €120B and ETIs’ higher demand for integrated PLM-ERP systems to manage complex supply chains and 1,000+ employees. Visiativ’s scalable offerings and consulting lift deal sizes: average ETI contract ~€450k and 22% higher lifetime value than SMB deals.
Specialized engineering and design firms use Visiativ for high-performance CAD and simulation, often running Dassault Systèmes solutions like CATIA and SIMULIA; 2024 industry surveys show 62% of such firms upgrade software annually to keep competitive delivery times under 12 weeks. Visiativ provides the latest features, prioritized technical support SLAs (often <24h) and role-based training, helping clients reduce design cycle time by ~18% and increase billable utilization.
Healthcare and Life Sciences
- 28% revenue growth (2024), healthcare €6.4M
- Compliance: ISO 13485, GDPR, 21 CFR part 11
- Digital twin market CAGR ~34% (2024–2029)
- Moovapps modules: QMS, traceability, data integrity
Architecture and Construction
Visiativ serves the Architecture, Engineering and Construction (AEC) sector with BIM (building information modeling) software and cloud-based collaborative project management, helping firms digitize workflows and cut rework—industry studies show 30% fewer design clashes and up to 8% lower project costs with BIM adoption (McKinsey, 2020–2022).
Visiativ’s 3D visualization and complex-data expertise supports large-scale projects and modular construction, and its consulting services target 25–40% faster coordination cycles on average for clients adopting end-to-end digital platforms.
- BIM + collaboration tools: reduce rework ~30%
- Typical project cost savings: up to 8%
- Coordination cycle improvement: 25–40%
- Key strengths: 3D viz, complex data mgmt, consulting
Core customers: Industrial SMEs (~60% 2024 revenue) shifting to 3D CAD/PLM; ETIs (€50–500M) with average contract ~€450k; specialized engineering firms (62% upgrade rate) cut design time ~18%; Healthcare revenue €6.4M (2024), 28% growth; AEC/BIM reduces rework ~30% and project costs up to 8%.
| Segment | 2024 %/€ | Key metric |
|---|---|---|
| Industrial SMEs | ~60% rev | -30% dev time; +3–6pp margins |
| ETIs | — | Avg contract €450k; LTV +22% |
| Engineering firms | — | 62% upgrade; −18% cycle |
| Healthcare | €6.4M (28% growth) | ISO 13485, GDPR |
| AEC/BIM | — | −30% rework; −8% cost |
Cost Structure
The largest share of Visiativ’s costs goes to salaries and benefits for specialized staff—engineers, developers, and consultants—accounting for roughly 45–55% of operating expenses in 2024, with average senior total compensation around €90–120k per year; recruiting and retention spend plus continuous training and certifications added ~€3–6k per employee annually to keep skills current.
Visiativ spends heavily on R&D to evolve its Moovapps suite and proprietary software, investing about €12.4M in 2024 (roughly 9% of revenues) to sustain IP relevance and market edge; spend targets include AI models and industrial IoT integration, with R&D headcount up 18% YoY to support platform scalability and new vertical modules.
As a major reseller, Visiativ buys software licenses from partners such as Dassault Systèmes, creating a variable cost that scaled with FY2024 software sales—about €120m of reseller-driven revenue vs group total €208.9m in 2024—so license procurement represents a material portion of COGS. Managing the margin spread between acquisition cost and retail price is central to finance, with gross margin sensitivity of several hundred basis points per 10% license cost swing.
Sales and Marketing Expenditures
Visiativ spends heavily on marketing, lead-gen, and sales commissions—about 12–15% of 2024 revenue (~€22M on €185M revenue) to fund campaigns, events, trade shows, and digital channels to grow clients and enter new geographies.
- ~12–15% of revenue (2024): ~€22M
- Events & trade shows: ~€3–4M
- Digital marketing + CRM: ~€6–8M
- Sales commissions & SDRs: ~€8–10M
Infrastructure and Global Operations
Operating Visiativ’s international offices and data centers drives large fixed costs—estimated at €18–22M annual rent and €4–6M utilities/maintenance—plus variable IT/cloud spend roughly €6–9M (2024 run-rate) and global admin payroll near €25M.
Integration with Groupe SNEF targets 8–12% cost savings via shared services, consolidating facilities and renegotiating vendor contracts to cut combined OPEX by ~€6–8M annually.
- Annual rent: €18–22M
- Utilities/maintenance: €4–6M
- Cloud/IT: €6–9M
- Admin payroll: ~€25M
- Projected savings with SNEF: 8–12% (~€6–8M)
Visiativ’s 2024 cost base: personnel 45–55% (~€80–110M), R&D €12.4M (9% rev), reseller license COGS linked to €120M reseller revenue, marketing 12–15% (~€22M), facilities €18–22M rent + €4–6M utilities, IT/cloud €6–9M, admin payroll ~€25M; SNEF integration targets €6–8M (8–12%) savings.
| Item | 2024 (€M) |
|---|---|
| Personnel | 80–110 |
| R&D | 12.4 |
| Marketing | 22 |
| Rent | 18–22 |
| IT/Cloud | 6–9 |
| Savings (SNEF) | 6–8 |
Revenue Streams
Recurring subscriptions for the Moovapps platform and maintenance on perpetual licenses now make up over 55% of Visiativ’s revenue, giving the company predictable cash flow and lower volatility in profit (FY2024: €136m recurring revenue).
As clients migrate to cloud, SaaS is forecast to exceed 70% of recurring mix by end-2026, raising ARR visibility and gross margin leverage.
Visiativ earns major revenue from professional consulting fees—billable hours for digital transformation and strategic advisory tied to large-scale implementations and multi-year mandates; consulting accounted for about 42% of group services revenue in FY2024, with average consulting margins near 28% and multi-project contracts often exceeding €500k per engagement, deepening client integration and boosting cross-sell of its software suites.
Visiativ’s training centers deliver certified courses to over 15,000 users yearly, generating about €18–20M in 2024 (≈8–9% of group revenue) through standalone professional development packages and bundles with initial software sales; training uptake correlates with a 35% higher 3‑year client retention and serves as a leading metric for software adoption and upsell velocity.
Software License Sales
- Perpetual = ~18% of software revenue (2024)
- Upfront cash improves liquidity
- Less predictable than ARR
- Flexible options: perpetual, term, hybrid
- 2024 ARR €56m, +27% YoY
Value-Added Service Commissions
Visiativ earns commissions and fees by securing innovation financing and R&D tax credits, linking its revenue to client savings and growth; in 2024 Visiativ reported service revenues of €88.3m, with advisory and value-added services growing faster than core software sales.
By capturing commissions within the digital transformation ecosystem, Visiativ extracts value beyond IT spend and strengthens client retention—helping clients claim tax credits worth millions and taking a percentage-based fee.
- 2024 service revenue: €88.3m
- Commissions tied to client savings (percentage-based)
- Aligns Visiativ success with client financial health
Recurring revenue (subscriptions + maintenance) >55% of sales (FY2024: €136m); ARR €56m (+27% YoY) with SaaS forecast >70% of recurring mix by end-2026. Consulting/services €88.3m (2024) with ~28% consulting margin; training €18–20m (2024). Perpetual licenses ~18% of software revenue.
| Metric | 2024 |
|---|---|
| Recurring rev | €136m |
| ARR | €56m |
| Services | €88.3m |
| Training | €18–20m |
| Perpetual | ~18% |